[gilligan]

Every sensible immigration policy has two objectives: (1) to regain control of our borders so that it is we who decide who enters and (2) to find a way to normalize and legalize the situation of the 11 million illegals among us.

Start with the second. No one of good will wants to see these 11 million suffer. But the obvious problem is that legalization creates an enormous incentive for new illegals to come.

We say, of course, that this will be the very last, very final, never-again, we're-not-kidding-this-time amnesty. The problem is that we say exactly the same thing with every new reform. And everyone knows it's phony.

What do you think was said in 1986 when we passed the Simpson-Mazzoli immigration reform? It turned into the largest legalization program in American history -- nearly 3 million people got permanent residency. And we are now back at it again with 11 million more illegals in our midst.

How can it be otherwise? We already have a river of people coming every day knowing they're going to be illegal and perhaps even exploited. They come nonetheless. The newest amnesty -- the "earned legalization" being dangled in front of them by proposed Senate legislation -- can only increase the flow.

Those who think employer sanctions will control immigration are dreaming. Employer sanctions were the heart of Simpson-Mazzoli. They are not only useless; they are pernicious. They turn employers into enforcers of border control. That is the job of government, not landscapers.

The irony of this whole debate, which is bitterly splitting the country along partisan, geographic and ethnic lines, is that there is a silver bullet that would not just solve the problem but also create a national consensus behind it.

My proposition is this: A vast number of Americans who oppose legalization and fear new waves of immigration would change their minds if we could radically reduce new -- i.e., future -- illegal immigration.

Forget employer sanctions. Build a barrier. It is simply ridiculous to say it cannot be done. If one fence won't do it, then build a second 100 yards behind it. And then build a road for patrols in between. Put in cameras. Put in sensors. Put out lots of patrols.

Can't be done? Israel's border fence has been extraordinarily successful in keeping out potential infiltrators who are far more determined than mere immigrants. Nor have very many North Koreans crossed into South Korea in the past 50 years.

Of course it will be ugly. So are the concrete barriers to keep truck bombs from driving into the White House. But sometimes necessity trumps aesthetics. And don't tell me that this is our Berlin Wall. When you build a wall to keep people in, that's a prison. When you build a wall to keep people out, that's an expression of sovereignty. The fence around your house is a perfectly legitimate expression of your desire to control who comes into your house to eat, sleep and use the facilities. It imprisons no one.

Of course, no barrier will be foolproof. But it doesn't have to be. It simply has to reduce the river of illegals to a manageable trickle. Once we can do that, everything becomes possible -- most especially, humanizing the situation of our 11 million illegals.

If the government can demonstrate that it can control future immigration, there will be infinitely less resistance to dealing generously with the residual population of past immigration. And, as Mickey Kaus and others have suggested, that may require that the two provisions be sequenced. First, radical border control by physical means. Then, shortly thereafter, radical legalization of those already here. To achieve national consensus on legalization, we will need a short lag time between the two provisions, perhaps a year or two, to demonstrate to the skeptics that the current wave of illegals is indeed the last.

This is no time for mushy compromise. A solution requires two acts of national will: the ugly act of putting up a fence and the supremely generous act of absorbing as ultimately full citizens those who broke our laws to come to America.

This is not a compromise meant to appease both sides without achieving anything. It is not some piece of hybrid legislation that arbitrarily divides illegals into those with five-year-old "roots" in America and those without, or some such mischief-making nonsense.

This is full amnesty (earned with back taxes and learning English and the like) with full border control. If we do it right, not only will we solve the problem, we will get it done as one nation.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...040601380.html

what do you guys think about that?

[Boondock]

i just skimmed it but is the main point the question of do we build a wall or several walls or barriers to keep illegals out?

if thats the question then i'm all for it. why not?

people always say things like "you can't blame the mexicans or whoever for trying to sneak across and make a better life for their family"

well you're right. i don't blame them for that but just cause they want a better life here in america don't mean they fucking get it.

if they want it bad enough then they should go through the motions to do it legally like everyone else.

i feel for some of the illegals that want to come in like that but it just can't happen. sucks for them and it sucks to be them but thats the breaks. life ain't fucking fair. there is absolutely zero reasons why this country should not be allowed to build a huge ass wall around it.

fact is they are not citizens of this country and they should not be allowed to just creep across.

i say lock it fuckin down.

[Ta'veren]

build a wall

[Tasha]

You ever immigrated anywhere Boon?

It's a long and tedius process.

Why go through all of that bullshit of getting a sponsor, applying for a permanent visa, etc etc etc...this may take YEARS to get legal status (somewhere around 6)

My grandmother had to live ehre for like 4 yeras with my family to get her legal status.

My aunt is just starting and it took her about 30 or so years to FINALLY get to america after yeras of being stuck in the phillapines.

I highly doubt the mexicans are going to find any familiy members to sponsor them. It's a double edged sword.

I favor a wall...but I'd like to see immigration be made a bit easier for those wanting to come.

[elroypornlab]

Originally Posted by The_Shootist

You ever immigrated anywhere Boon?

It's a long and tedius process.

Why go through all of that bullshit of getting a sponsor, applying for a permanent visa, etc etc etc...this may take YEARS to get legal status (somewhere around 6)

My grandmother had to live ehre for like 4 yeras with my family to get her legal status.

My aunt is just starting and it took her about 30 or so years to FINALLY get to america after yeras of being stuck in the phillapines.

I highly doubt the mexicans are going to find any familiy members to sponsor them. It's a double edged sword.

I favor a wall...but I'd like to see immigration be made a bit easier for those wanting to come.

And that's great legal imagration. Not jumping a fuckin fence and fucking up another nations econemy BUILD A WALL

[Tasha]

What I'm saying is, why go through that bullshit when it's easier to jump a fence man.

I still say if people want to come let them, but legally but make it instead of 6-10 yeras to get residency and legal status

make it like 3.

[Tasha]

If you REALLY want to make it hard for people to come legally.

Than make it so that it's super hard to immigrate.

I know for an american it's REALLY ahrd to immigrate anywhere if you aren't a doctor or lawyer or something.

[Boondock]

Originally Posted by The_Shootist

You ever immigrated anywhere Boon?

It's a long and tedius process.

Why go through all of that bullshit of getting a sponsor, applying for a permanent visa, etc etc etc...this may take YEARS to get legal status (somewhere around 6)

My grandmother had to live ehre for like 4 yeras with my family to get her legal status.

My aunt is just starting and it took her about 30 or so years to FINALLY get to america after yeras of being stuck in the phillapines.

I highly doubt the mexicans are going to find any familiy members to sponsor them. It's a double edged sword.

I favor a wall...but I'd like to see immigration be made a bit easier for those wanting to come.

tomo. i understand but i just don't care about them that much. they are NOT citizens of this country. thats the breaks. who cares how hard it is. it's not my problem. very very simple. the fact is people DO come here legally every day. yes it takes years but thats the process. fuckin live with it or immigrate to canada or australia or somewhere else. i really don't care.

it takes them 6 years to become legal. boo fuckin hoo. i guess if they started the process right now, today they would be legal by the time the wall is finished.

i don't understand people who favor not having a wall or making immigration easier. why the fuck should we make it easier.

it sucks for those people but thats life. you make the best of what you got. thankfully i was born a us citizen. i don't have to worry about it.
i was also born with degenerating discs. i hate it. it's not fuckin fair but thats the breaks.

[Boondock]

Originally Posted by The_Shootist

If you REALLY want to make it hard for people to come legally.

Than make it so that it's super hard to immigrate.

I know for an american it's REALLY ahrd to immigrate anywhere if you aren't a doctor or lawyer or something.

why. according to you it's already hard to immigrate. i say we leave those laws how they are and build the wall too. i say we build that bitch 100 foot tall around the entire border that touches another countries land.

fuck em. we don't have to make it easy for them. we don't have to let them at all.

[Boondock]

to top it off i think they should only be allowed to get legal resident alien status. fuck making them a citizen.
they can immigrate here and have a better life as a resident alien.

[Tasha]

we are an immigrant country boon

Our popuation grows because of immigrants.

It comes in waves, first the Germans, than the Irish, than the Italians, Jews...etc, now it's the Mexicans, Asians and so forth.

Back when your great great great grandfather came or whatever, immigration was easy. Why can't it be like that now? well not like what it used to be which was a HUGE flood.

But make it so it's easier.

On the statue of liberty it says: "Give me your poor, your tired, your huddle masses yearning to breathe free."

Why can't we do that now? give them the same chance as your caucasian ancestors?

I'm sorry this is weird coming from me, I used to hate mexicans, I used to be racist man..but shit happened to me that changed me man, I no longer hate illegals man...I just feel that they should be allowed the chance to come to america.

[Boondock]

Originally Posted by The_Shootist

we are an immigrant country boon

Our popuation grows because of immigrants.

It comes in waves, first the Germans, than the Irish, than the Italians, Jews...etc, now it's the Mexicans, Asians and so forth.

Back when your great great great grandfather came or whatever, immigration was easy. Why can't it be like that now? well not like what it used to be which was a HUGE flood.

But make it so it's easier.

On the statue of liberty it says: "Give me your poor, your tired, your huddle masses yearning to breathe free."

Why can't we do that now? give them the same chance as your caucasian ancestors?

I'm sorry this is weird coming from me, I used to hate mexicans, I used to be racist man..but shit happened to me that changed me man, I no longer hate illegals man...I just feel that they should be allowed the chance to come to america.

cause things change. just cause they came then don't mean they should come now.

since then the population of this country has probably multiplied by millions and millions. since those times we have had a civil war, a couple world wars, a few nuclear detonations, the cold war, the bay of pigs, 911, and all sorts of other shit.

fact is they are not citizens of this country and just cause they want to come here don't mean they automatically should be able to.

very very simple tomo. we are clearly never going to agree and thats fine. i doubt my opinion will change weather it's right or wrong.

i'm tired of people thinking just cause things are shitty for them they should be able to turn to the united states for answers.

[Boondock]

Originally Posted by The_Shootist

, I no longer hate illegals man...I just feel that they should be allowed the chance to come to america.

i don't hate the illegals. i just don't care to spend time thinking about them and i don't care to have them flooding this country. let them immigrate somewhere else or let their fucking country establish a system like we have. it's so fucking wonderful and great. why don't these fucks turn to their country and their leaders for help?

instead they feel that since they live 100 feet from the states that they should just be able to tunnel on in, get a job and send all those us dollars back to their family. fuck that shit

[Tasha]

Alot of immigrants I know actually do the same thing...

Send money to the homeland.

I don't know man, where else could they immigrate man? shit, canada?

[AnnonUSA]

Whenever this issue is brought up the line between Legal and Illegal is always blurred. The bottom line is, Legal immigrants are counted, and registered, and pay taxes and have made a point to work within the system. Illegal immigrants steal from Americans, they steal education, Health care, and benefits, and to some extent they steal the security of America.

Back when the Melting Pot America was being built, the population was a lot smaller, and those that came here came with the intention of finding the American dream, they learned English, worked hard and paid their way, to live as Americans.

Today they come, and send money out of the country and American economy, they refuse to speak English, they are always "Spanish" or "Mexican" or "something" Americans. And their thoughts are to get rich and go back to their own country.

There comes a time to hang out the "no Vacancy" sign, and that time is now. Build the double wall.

[Boondock]

Originally Posted by The_Shootist

Alot of immigrants I know actually do the same thing...

Send money to the homeland.

I don't know man, where else could they immigrate man? shit, canada?

tomo. my point is who gives a fuck where they immigrate to? why do we always need to worry about it?

where are all the moulies living in the sudan and places like that gonna imigrate too? i'm sure they wouldn't mind a better life for them and their family. why not send em all over and let them stay here.

let them go to canada. if canada won't help them then let them go somewhere else.

just for the record a lot of people do immigrate to canade cause it's easier. then what do they do? they come here anyway. if you're a canadian citizen i think you're allowed to reside legally in the united states 6 months out of the year or something like that.

i used to live next to a shitload of chinese people that owned a buffet. they were legal but all thier workers were not. most of the workers would get their citizenship to canade cause it's easier and then come here anyway.


fuck cares where they go as long as it's not here